>>"What exactly do you want from their 'evil side', though?FGO portrays them as absolutely ruthless killing machines half the time, Okita's voice change during and after she's done fighting literally shows that."

That is just them being serious. Other servants do that as well. Even Berserker Fran who isn't really talking has this serious intonation.

I want their evil side to be portrayed in event scenarios and my room/valentine voices. They can either go "I thought the globalised Japan will be terrible, but now it seems like it's not all that bad" or "I still hate it, I want my clean Japan back"...Just give some references. Admit what happened.

>>"While the Shinsengumi gets whitewashed in public perception as people get to know them more,"

On the contrary. Shinsengumi's public perception is pure white. They are handsome lovers in otome games, hardworking police in many animes. Even if they attack some activists, it's just "them doing their job". Most Meiji-based fictions do not portrait them robbing money or trespassing into civilian properties, which they did. If you started your Meiji history with Hakuoki, you would be shocked when you get to know their originals.

Gintama is the only exception I know so far, they had innocent people killed and Okita admitting it, while commenting "it's either kill or be killed at the time, sorry". That's what I want.

>>"Also, Shinsengumi members weren't exactly harbouring strong political beliefs. They were martial artists are their core"

That is a political belief. Choosing to serve a master, no matter whom that is, is a belief. Even choosing not to stand for any political parties is a political belief.

And may I speak for Yamanami...Killing anyone who is leaving your party is not only a belief, that makes the group an evil cult.

Of course it is also a belief, a value! They see the Shinsengumi entity as something divine, they value their group over one's free will and one's life, and they don't allow any mistakes to be fixed. You can't go and find out it's not suitable for you and say "sorry my bad, I got into the wrong club, bye bye".

Do you know what other famous groups have the same practice of killing the leavers? No not the Yakuzas, they only cut your finger off. Not the FBI either... The Aum cult kills leavers. That's how bad it is.

I neither like nor dislike them. I simply don't care about them. I had never heard of any of them before they were released in game. I don't care about most of the Japanese historical figures in general (or any historical figure I don't know much about really) because I'm not well versed in their history. This is the same reason I've never really enjoyed Gudaguda events. Of course this is entirely my own problem, and no fault of the game. They're definitely very popular in Japan otherwise I doubt they'd keep releasing them. I grow to like some of them like Iyo who I really like, but in general I don't care about them.

@NZRdl This is a truly pointless debate, if I've ever seen one. Each and every one of your points can be refuted, but our views differ so much that it's gonna go on forever, and that's not how I wish to spend this day.

I can only hope my perspective remains open to enjoying these romanticized tragedies and never turns as sour and blatantly seeped in realism as yours. Good day.

Writers should not romantise tragedies by ignoring real tragedies and making a new one from the ruin of what they had ignored.

It is the realism that makes the historical fiction genre. Otherwise you don't have to call your character Okita of Shinsengumi. You can just call her Alice of the Pacific Island Enforcers, something like that.

@NZRdl @GudakoAlter61 there is a lot to unpack here. Thank you for that spirited debate. Both of you have merits, and it really is a harsh difference of opinion.

I'll give my take as a gaijin with moderate knowledge of Japanese history.

It feels like a big portion of the Japanese people have an exaggerated reverence for the Shinsengumi. As you've both pointed out, they are mainly romanticized in works of fiction - and in FGO's case, every character in this game is a romanticized version of sorts; I mean Jack the Ripper is a loli, Jacques de Molay is a hot waifu, so is all three versions of Nero - that's unavoidable when you have to sell a game.

The Shinsengumi are depicted as tragic, heroic samurai—the "last of a dying breed" from Japan's pre-modern, warrior-driven era. This resonates with some men who, consciously or not, admire this old-school masculinity, a trend seen in conservative leanings across cultures. Women may be drawn to their "badass" image, as the Shinsengumi embody a rugged, masculine ideal.

Personally, I'm neutral but lean annoyed, as I'd prefer more diverse Japanese figures in the game.

They probably have, but the Shinsengumi People are very popular, just based on the amount of representation they get in anime and they probably just like bringing multiple characters of the same group, we have like 7 Hassans and I don't know how many saberfaces.

And we also have lot's of other japanese Servants, some people that did some type of art, some martial artists, some folklore entities and a few yokais at least. Also a God, if you want to count Tamamo or Kenshin. We just have a lot of japanese Servants in general (around 100, tho there are dupes and type moon originals)

Think of how heroic spirits manifest: how people perceive them

So, the FGO Shinsegumi are like that because that's how people envision them.

Think of Napoleon's comment on how he looks as a heroic spirit.

@Guda-tan

Jack the Ripper's case is quite the opposite with the Shinsengumi people. In Jack's case, people don't know much about the historically accurate Jack, so writers must improvise to add more so that they can build up the character. And that is what they did to FGO Jack. The FGO Jack is a loli but at the same time a serial killer that talks about dismembering people all the time. The orphaned kids part is Fate original, but the dismembering part came from the history.

For Shinsengumi, and actually most of the Meiji political/military figures, they had all the historical records needed to build up proper characters, yet the writers took away the darker parts from them, and made them into flat, harmless characters who are just not themselves.

I get what you mean by "the last of a dying breed" and "conservative", but that is a breed that deserves extinction, a pest. Modern Japanese people are benefiting from their extinction. The late-edo masculinity is nothing like the medieval knights, "protect ladies and children" that sort of masculinity? The samurais were allowed to kill civilians, even children, if they don't salute them properly. I guess even the most conservative far-right people nowadays may find that unacceptable. That is the value the old era stands for, and the value Shinsengumi tried to protect. To me, it seems unforgivable to be benefiting from their extinction and portraying them as pure heroes(not even dark heroes) at the same time. The gaijins may see it like a "the last samurai" type story, some old, loyal, honest, serious, wise...chivalry, Japanese warriors. The Japanese should know better.

Yes we need more diverse servants. We are missing so many types of servants globally. We don't have anybody from the humanity branch yet. Japan had such great candidates that really can make modern Japanese proud. Yet all they want is THIS.

@NZRdl the grass is always greener… objectively, our modern life is better than the past. We have longer lifespans and more opportunities. We have less racism, less classism, less sexism (though they still exist). And yet, so many people are unhappy, discontent, and wish for a simpler time.

Humans are complex. We can’t speak to our wants and needs and feelings with reason and logic.

People inside and outside Japan that play fgo love gudaguda. To the point that if there is no gudaguda event in a calendar year they wonder where is it. Japan has thousands of years of history to draw from so naturally they have a ton of other potential japanese servants to introduce, they won't run out.