Talk:Battle in New York 2018/@comment-31392049-20180922151633/@comment-36470477-20180924102340

Well, certainly, I've already admitted that, traditionally, triple Arts servants like Tamamo utilize Arts chains to reliably gain NP. That's the beauty of NP regen off Garden of Avalon, it's something that allows you get to NP gauge over time instead, and not rely so much on Arts chains. And that's not to say, Arts chains won't be used; in a Tama Merlin set up, you've already got a minimum of 7 Arts cards (at least 1 from third member) plus two Arts NP cards, so Arts chains still show up in decent frequency.

Garden of Avalon is also quite potent, in that you have to look at in long term effects: over 5 turns, it heals 5000 HP, and charges party gauge by 25%. So, technically, more than the Arts chain, but it's a weird comparison to make, as you can still run GoA in an Arts chain, as it is an Arts card itself. Regen itself is key here; it's an effect that is still effective even if the gauge is full, as you just use your NP from there, and find yourself still gaining NP charge afterwards. Say you use a full chain of Arts NPs; unless that 20% charge takes any NP to the next overcharge it doesn't actually mean much, since everyone's gauges get depleted to zero at the end, save for charge effects like Tama's or natural hit charging from NPs, which Mordred Rider uses to great effect. And I find fairly often in my Tama Merlin teams that everyone's NPs are ready to fire off at once, and Tama's NP going off at 300% overcharge is quite a sight to see.

Something I find important when regarding which support type servants to use is what can they bring to the table that other servants cannot.

Tamamo in that regard is absolutely one of my favorites (though perhaps my personal bias may be somewhat mixed in), as she has the unique ability of bringing active skill charge to the team. The only servant who comes even close to that is Artoria Alter Rider (the swimsuit one, not the santa one, and I'm a little sad I have to make that distinction), and she can only do it through a single target active skill.

Merlin, on the other hand, has a lot packed in for one servant. GoA is already pretty ridiculous for that whole 5k HP and 25% charge thing I mentioned earlier, on top of a minimum of 10 stars granted per turn, but the fact that he gets a party invincibility on top of that? Well, yeah, common knowledge and all that, "Memerlin" for a reason.

Now sure, his party invincibility may not come quite as often as Jeanne's, but ultimately as long as it blocks every NP coming in, I think the momentum provided from party NP charge and more healing and star regeneration makes Merlin come out on top for me personally. There's also the fact that sometimes you'll just want to delay Jeanne's NP because the enemy NP is coming next turn, and what does mean if Tamamo's NP is also charged? Do you also delay using Tama's NP too so that you can recharge Jeanne later next turn? What if you need some party healing at the moment? What if the third servant would really appreciate the NP charge or active skill charge from Tama's NP? Can you be sure that Jeanne's NP can be ready for the next enemy NP even if you're not using this instance of Tama's NP to recharge it? At some point in this equation, you're sacrificing momentum somewhere.

Merlin's GoA on the other hand, is pretty free to use. Essentially, there's never really a bad time to use it, so if you have him and Tama both charged up, there's no reason to hold back. It flows better for me.

In a lot of ways, Merlin is amazing for me because of all this stuff he has, with the Buster performance buff being almost tangential to it all. He supports party sustainability, momentum, and crits in general more so than the significance of his Buster buff. Even within the Hero Creation skill, which includes the Buster buff, I'd argue it's just as important to properly utilize the 1 turn 100% crit buff for optimization.

Tamamo is somewhat similar, her going hard on party momentum through party NP charge and active skill charge. It's just that the Arts buff feels somewhat more integral than Merlin's Buster buff because it can contribute more to party NP momentum, so it may seem like the only right way to use her is for supporting completely Arts focused servants.

I, however, would like to think that any team that appreciates NP and active skill charging would welcome Tamamo.

Well, all that really is just regarding utilizing servants for a role they play in a team as a whole, rather than specifically for one particular function. (ie Tamamo the Arts buffer, Merlin the Buster buffer, Osakabe the Quick buffer). Consider why Skadi made more of a splash than Osakabe. Is this simply because her Quick buff has a higher number to it (well, disregarding 500% charge Osakabe)? Or is it because she way's more geared towards critical damage buffs, higher NP charging through her active skill, and a party evasion rather than a party defense buff? Skadi outperforms Osakabe because she functions wildly differently, in better ways.

Now I really like Osakabe as a character, but in terms of gameplay, it really seems like DW kind of did a half-assed job of trying to make her the Quick Tamamo. Tamamo works well because she gives the party momentum through charging NP and skills. She can't neccessarily have the party survive on her own, as she lacks party defense or invincibility buffs, but it's fine because she can really help other servants do that. Or she can just make them go nuts with spamming NPs and skills. That's her thing. What does Osakabe do? Well, aside from her enemy buff clear, she just doesn't have much that stands out. Her NP feels like it should help the team survive, but it's worse than Mashu's and unlike Mashu, she doesn't have a taunt to capitalize on blocking something like a single target NP in conjuction with her Shapeshift. So she can't really adequately protect the team from NPs, and Mashu just provides better defenses in general. Can she do momentum like Tamamo? Well her NP charge skill only gives 20%, it's single target, and it comes with an unimpressive buff of star generation. It's like Waver's Crit buff skill, but worse. Her party Quick buff should create a method for gaining NP gauge and stars on a regular basis, kind of like Merlin actually, but the problem is that Quick servants who can gain enough NP and create enough stars on their Quicks to see a significant effect from Osakabe's NP aren't all that many. Osakabe's issue is that she's outclassed in party sustainability, momentum, star generation, NP blocking, and offensive buffing by other supports. A servant doing well supported by Osakabe speaks more to how good that servant already is, rather than Osakabe's contributions.

Now flip Tama and Osakabe's affinities, Tama's Fox Wedding now is a 50% Quick buff. Osakabe's NP now gives party Arts buffs. How effective are each, and why?

I was going to say Osakabe still doesn't work, but actually, thinking on it, a party Arts buff like that makes her quite similar to Gilgamesh Caster. In fact Gil even also provides a 3 turn 20% defense buff through his NP. ...While also dealing damage. Well, how about that? Osakabe a fully support-based servant, would actually face some competition from a 4 star utility attacker. Well, her party Arts buff would probably be able to cast more often, and that might snowball quite well, actually, but I think that becomes a testament of Arts just being a better card type than Quick, rather than Osakabe having a well constructed kit.

Now, Tamamo. It's kind of easy to say she does straight up just get worse, as its much harder to utilize the Quick buff instead of an Arts one. But can she still work? I'd argue yes, and why? Because her NP would still be the beautiful, amazing thing that is now. She'd function a little more stiffly, but an NP that gives at least 25% charge to the party and active skill charge has undeniable merit for many teams. When it comes down to it, Fox Wedding is still at least a 2500 HP heal 5 turn CD skill, and it's still supported well because of her own NP accelerating it.

Tamamo's Arts buff is a complement to her momentum-based support, rather than the other way around. She makes everyone's NPs and active skills come out faster, and her Witchcraft skill even buys turns to allow for the team to have more chances to do stuff. No other servant can quite replace what she does.

An Arts-style Osakabe works, and much better, evidently resembling the simplicity of how many people view some support servants. The type of performance buff coming off of her NP completely dictates what kind of team she is put in, and how well she performs. Nothing else in her kit is significant enough to give her a special role in the team other than "Quick support". Osakabe can only support Quick servants properly, and Mashu is virtually better in every other scenario. Heck, I'd argue Mashu is sometimes even better helping out teams including Quick servants, as she can properly block single target NPs from hurting anyone.

Osakabe might have a slight niche in being able to clear an enemy's buffs, but here's the kicker: a lot of other servants can do that. Offensive servants can do that. Jack, the first 5 star Assassin, can do that.

And that's why Skadi ended up better. That's why we see her with crazy videos where challenge quests are cleared super fast. She can play an interesting, unique role in a team that takes her well past being a simple "Quick support".

And it is my argument that Tamamo and Merlin are similar in that regard. They are more than just Arts and Buster supports, respectively, and as such, can do more than just respectively support Arts and Buster-focused servants.

Playing off my earlier hypothetical, if Merlin had a different type of performance buff off his Hero Creation, he would still undeniably amazing. I'd argue he'd be great even without any performance buff at all, because he'd still retain party sustainability, momentum, and that sweet 100% crit buff. His role in the party would be largely the same.

This comes down to one point you're making that I find a little odd. Saying that the Tama Merlin team doesn't work on the basis of the third servant having a Buster NP, saying it would disrupt Arts chains. In the first place, you're not necessarily being forced to use the Buster NP, and in some cases, I don't mind delaying the offense servant's NP to do an NP chain: both Merlin and Tamamo's NPs greatly benefit from overcharge.

And even before all of that, a large portion of servants I mentioned that work with the Tama Merlin team have Arts NPs, anyways: most of the Arts crit servants, and all of the natural NP spammers (that I mentioned, at least, Kintoki Rider exists after all). And in some regards, yes, that does reflect Tama's Arts buff being somewhat more integral to creating and maintaining party momentum than Merlin's Buster buff to his, but even then, triple Arts servants with Buster NPs exist, like Emiya and Abigail. They bring the total of Arts command cards in the deck to 9. Can you really say they disrupt Arts chains? Though this may not necessarily be the most rigid of evidence, I've also cleared the Spartan challenge with Tama Merlin Suzuka and the Izo challenge with Tama Merlin Abigail, no deaths or CS. (I'd like to say the same of the Tawara challenge, but I actually went into that blind w/ Tama Tama Lancer Merlin and no idea what was going on, and at the end, everyone else including backline had fallen save for Tama Lancer staring down at the full second 3mil HP bar. She then proceeded to oneshot that bar with her NP,  the rest of the Brave chain being unneccesary, and that was with the non-LB damage CE.)

Now, addressing your point about the lack of defense buffs. I thought I made it kind of clear with the utility attackers thing, but I can expand on it. Essentially, think of what a party defense buff does for the party. A 20% one, for example. It reduces the damage your party takes by 20%. Think of something like say Euryale's NP or Abigail's Witch Trial skill, both of which include the effect of reducing the enemy's attack by 20%. As such, these essentially have the same effect as the 20% party defense buff, at least assuming you're facing one enemy, or maybe that one targeted enemy is at least the major attacking threat. (Munemori also gets to do some crazy stuff with his NP and Bladeless State skill.)

Of course, AoE Attack debuffs also exist, like Emiya or Shuten's NPs or Robin's Sabotage skill. What I'm getting at here, is kind of similar to the thing I was talking about with Osakabe. Some servants can be offensive, but also provide the utility or defensive capabilities of support servants. We're not necessarily giving up defensive measures just because we're not explicitly using a "Defense buff". And even then, that still doesn't account for servants like Ereshkigal and Gilgamesh Caster, who can provide actual party Defense buffs, servants like Achilles, who has both a Taunt and Invincibility skill like Mashu, or even an anomaly as David, who actually just has a party Evasion skill.

And I'd still very much argue that offensive Charmers/Stunners have an adequate "defensive" presence in their own right, simply by stopping enemies from taking action at all. For example, I was able to handle the acclerated NP charging Kiritsugu in the Zero challenge event simply by locking him down with Euryale. I believe Merlin actually got taken down by the solo Saber Diarmuid later, but at that point, Euryale and Tama were more than enough to finish off a male Saber.

There also still is my point about Tamamo's Shapeshift being a very potent survival tool for her (60/30% is really solid), and with her NP she actually very easily keeps up her personal Defense buff most of the time, and combined with a lot of offensive servants at least having the capability to protect themselves or have class advantage, Merlin is really the only vulnerable piece here, which again, like I said, can be somewhat rectified with a 20% Defense CE, and/or Tama/Merlin's targeted heals in a pinch. Even the Mystic Code skills can be put to use here.

But I suppose I should address the most important point you've made.

Using multiple versions of one servant in the same party.

REEEEEEE HOW DARE YOU SAY MORE OF TAMAMO IS AN ATROCITY

At the end of the day, this is just a mobile game, (and perhaps that speaks to how odd I am for being willing to type this much out regarding said mobile game) but seeing multiple of the same servant is essentially is kind of just silly or fun, in my opinion.

Someone could use a team comprised entirely of Artoria, and while I might get a little sad for being reminded of how many there are in the game, it's also just kind of surreal, wacky to see, and a display of their dedication, so eh, more power to them.

Similarly, the existence of the swimsuit servants at all is just kind of ridiculous. Tama Lancer fights using a parasol. Archuria uses a super soaker. Combined with the fact that they are heading into battle with swimsuits on, I personally think its a little weird to draw the line between that and just seeing multiple instances of a servant, which is kind of inevitable for most mobages, although I believe Granblue actually has the restriction of only being able to use one version of a person in a party.

To an extent, though, the silliness of swimsuit servants did somewhat affect me for a period of time, as I hesitated to grail Tama Lancer until I eventually got her to NP3, and then just thought, "Eh, might as well at this point..." (I previously had a personal rule that I wouldn't grail silly alternates, so things like swimsuit versions or Nero Bride.)

Some people like me may think that purposefully avoidng using the same servant twice would only serve as an arbitrary limit on teambuilding, but ultimately, how you compose your team is up to you; if you don't want to see multiple instances of a servant, you're free to make it that way, and that's fine.