Talk:Artoria Pendragon (Lily)/@comment-2A02:120B:C3E3:1DF0:F1C3:6A32:967C:861B-20180318053934/@comment-29893250-20180408012359

Every comparison requires a number of assumptions to be made. I think we've talked enough that you shoulder understand what mine are in a rough sense. Multiple times I've stated something or other about simplifying gameplay into 3 major categories, being farming, multiple large enemies, and boss killing. Everything in FGO roughly fits into one of these three categories. I also make the assumption for the sake of comparison that 1-3 star servants and welfares will be NP5 and all other gold servants will be NP1. Obviously this doesn't hold true to everyone but if one had to pick some parameters, these are by far the most common scenario you'll find. So if you've got that NP5 Artoria vanilla or NP5 saber alter, then it makes sense to take what I have to say with a grain of salt and understand that it may or may not apply to you. I also made the assumption to only consider compositions that I'd actually use if I had access to little or a lot. If something was clearly bad, I'd rule it an invalid thing to grade either on as I'd not have any excuse to use them in that situation.

Now, I did not state that more NP damage equals better. In fact, I explicitly stated that the numbers are close enough that in that function, they stand equal. Lily's increased NP damage will have some corner cases where it will make a difference. So will Artoria's charisma going the other way in corner cases where other servants need said charisma. However, in my gameplay experience, I find both of these cases to be rare which is why I graded them to be roughly equal.

I have always maintained that both Artoria vanilla and lily are objectively bad. So matters of "why not use Fergus" are a bit meaningless. Indeed they both lack a charge skill but then again, few sabers have one. I believe Mordred is the only farming saber with a charge skill. And yes, I do find Mordred to be better than Artoria. The premise of the discussion includes the intention to compare these, though if you'd like to maintain a stance of "They're both bad" rather than looking at it, that's fine. I absolutely agree. However, if you do wish for me to continue, I'll address each point.

The use of crits matter to those who make use of the stars. This is absolutely true. However, there are 3 main setups to look at here. One is an arts cycle setup for a hard match that you for some reason decided that you wanted a nuker saber and this is the one you picked. In this case, they will be the receiver of the stars where Lily will be slightly better for aforementioned reasons. Two is the farming setup on the back of kaleidescopes. In this case, you wouldn't be using frags. The third is one where you're jamming a bunch of sabers on a team for class advantage. In this case, you'll have generally equal ish star distribution barring use of specific abilities which means it isn't the situation you were suggesting. And then there's the rest in which I'd question why you're fielding either or. If you plan for a servant not to fire off, why use either of these two? Why not use a support servant who will have more support without grabbing a chunk of stars? If you say you want to use this slot for a beatstick slot that's holding frag... why? That doesn't make sense. If they're not a beatstick, they should be supporting. And I hardly think anyone would call either of these real support. They are beatsticks (albeit bad ones) with a modicrum of support abilities that demand to be supported by others. Otherwise you just wouldn't use them. Your setup was a 3 saber team so I assume it is for farming some lancers. You chose your 2 sabers to prop up a support saber. So in this setup, you aren't really planning on using the Artoria/Lily as a beatstick. Rather, you're acting as though the charisma is what you're looking for. However, this is literally all she supplies. I could just as easily swap either of them out for Hans who gives a much larger boost via crit damage, provides stars with innocent monster, and doesn't drag stars, resulting in more of the pie to go around. Being so easily replaceable by something that's going to exceed either by miles with something you should already have makes this fall under the "clearly bad team composition" category which I'm dismissing on account that I'd never use it. The area that I'm looking at is narrow because their strengths are indeed narrow. However, I'd only use them where I'm playing to their strengths barring special cases such as event drop bonuses.

Since you seem to be focusing on the 33% thing, I'll address that in similar fashion. You're getting 33% from a bond CE plus charisma. First off in an arts team, this is simply diminished in value. In long fights, this is also diminished in value. So by process of elimination, you are looking at a farming or medium sized boss rush situation, fielding multiple beatsticks. In any of those situations, would you be using a bond CE instead of a kaleidescope or similar? Basically never. Were it a farming mission, it'd go by quickly, allowing you to switch roles. Rather than choose to make Artoria/Lily the support, you'd instead give them a charge CE and make Waver or similar your support, satsifying the job of buffing and hitting. If you have a friend, asking them to place his bond CE or an ox king on him satisfies the further damage boosts. So that eliminates a farming situation, leaving only a boss rush in which case you probably wouldn't be using either of these as bad support. Once again you're use something like Waver or Merlin.

Now you may be saying "It isn't fair to compare them to Waver or Merlin" and I'd say that isn't quite accurate. I say that if you're talking about having a support, it is absolutely ok to compare. After all, it is sacrificing the Attila in favor of either of these in a fashion that anyone can have at their disposal. Comparing to Hans is also fair because you should have him raised. If you use a nuker as a support and have nothing enabling the nuke to nuke because you jammed on a bond CE, then you have given up using them for the one job that they do decently and they should be rightfully compared against others in that field. I consider only narrow use for them because that's all they're good at and if you deviate from it, it just begs the question why you're using them in such a suboptimal build.

I do agree that Lily is unlikely to get any stronger than she is now. However, I'm not about to assume that some servant or another will get a strengthen or what that strengthen might be. For all you know, they may never fix Artoria vanilla and instead release "Saber Avalon Version" as a separate servant. So I guess that falls under another assumption that I'd make. I'd be grading based on a snapshot of what they are now and what we have at our disposal right now. If thngs change in the future, my opinion my change.