Talk:Artoria Pendragon/@comment-25685875-20170713064835/@comment-88.112.87.185-20170729154836

There is explicit proof in that by all accounts she ruled flawlessly, as I noted before with a citation. Her kingdom explicitly ended because of a traitor of the highest level who didn't even want to rebel or acquire the kingdom for themselves but because they couldn't handle rejection and thus wanted to burn everything to the ground. A childish tantrum of epic proportions; ”If I can't have it, then no one can.”

Artoria was raised to be a knight every day and taught to be a king by Merlin every night in her dreams. Read Garden of Avalon. In Fate she says ”She was raised to be King.” That ”idiotic notion” is something the other characters knew about even before Artoria drew the sword, as her step-brother Kay notes that ”no one wants to be that person", as they would rather use things such as wealth and power to choose their king because it lines up with their personal objectives better. But as the EX-rank Clairvoyant who would rather see humans prosper decided with Uther; that would not be enough to avert Britain's destruction. Right before she draws the sword, Artoria asks herself why she was taught to be a knight and to deny her own desires as a human, it wasn't something she merely decided upon by a whim. From the beginning, even before her conception, it was a plan hatched to create the ideal king. Right before she draws the blade, Merlin notes that she should think it through as the moment she draws the sword she will cease to be human. Artoria was bred, born and raised to be the ideal king; do you not understand why Merlin is locked up in Avalon? He only realized just as she left for Rome that his ideal king made her into someone with no pride in themselves; with no desires outside of her country's happiness, with no goals beside her people's safety. This is why Merlin is locked up in the tower; only the sinless may pass and he was hurt by the thought that he had created and molded Artoria into what she was and he was responsible for it all. The novella ends with Merlin in relief that Saber didn't get her wish, because he was certain that because of his actions the one person he came to like would continue to suffer.

And your affirmation about Shirou is as ridiculous as it is funny. He won't kill thousands due to his ideals? He won't affect hundreds of thousands directly with his actions? There is some difference because Artoria is king? Ridiculous; the realization Merlin had was that to Artoria the kingship was nothing more than a means to an end, for bringing salvation to Britain.

It categorically cannot be called a delusion, as all of her Knights explicitly accept that she was the ideal king. What is realized in the world, cannot be called a delusion for that is something that cannot be. Additionally, it was the only way to bring salvation to Britain and the only reason she regrets it is because just like EMIYA, she forgot what her original devotion was based on. Just like with EMIYA, the means became the end and suddenly they wondered why they were so troubled. Don't you wonder how in UBW Saber somehow overcomes all her issues with a lot less fuss and muss than in Fate? Also, re-read That Which Cannot Be Surrendered. Shirou and Archer also explicitly deny survivor's guilt as their primary motivation. It was a jealous admiration for ”salvation” and the beauty held in that ideal. Re-read Answer and the Brilliant Years epilogue.

And you fail to realize that Artoria was right all along. She achieved exactly that which she set out to and as she remembers this, all is settled. She thought she wanted to continue her kingdom, rather than use the kingdom to protect the people. But she had forgotten that originally she merely wanted to bring salvation to Britain on the edge of destruction, which she accomplished already by the time she slew Vortigern and repelled the Saxons. The fact that she ruled fairly and justly for another ten years and created a prosperous society was all just something that naturally followed as she made it possible for ”those many people to smile”.

And like I said, the only reason it all ended in destruction was because Mordred was a literal brat. Yes, the Knights of the Round Table had lost most of its members, but none of them were any longer necessary; the ideal king ruled justly and fairly after the times of chaos and strife without any of them.

The fact that you're backing down to argue about my not using a literal quotation of a translation and trying to argue that because it's a chinese book it does not affect Britain, rather than arguing the actual subject at hand shows you've already lost. And human behaviour is universal; a leader should not be predictable. For example; you are the ideal king, but a certain set of the knightly class are miffed due to you preferring to favor ”the all” over the ”warrior class” as per Complete Materials. When you wish to accomplish something, how do you avoid friction with that class of relatively wealthy and powerful grumblers? Here's a hint; I just told you earlier.

Moreover you keep deflecting with ”real Arthurian mythology” yet you've not managed to show one inconsistency from TM. Go on, try it, you'll be surprised when I dig up the quotations and ram them up your ass.

Yes, yes. The Round Table is the symbol of the knights having equal right to speak, to converse on the same level. That does not waive duties of a subject, nor does it mean that the autocrat is in any way, shape or form dependant on their approval or counsel.

Also, fun fact; we always refuse chinese companies because they always try to fuck you over. It's never worth it doing business with the chinese.