Talk:Kiyohime/@comment-31760473-20170508023118/@comment-28048698-20170509065548

@Veloxt1r0kore: I've lost my respect for some other authors too. For example, Ogure Ito. He created very interesting mangas (Tenjou Tenge and Air Gear), and then eventually destroy their story with senseless things and explanations. Ugh.

@Valeth: I know what you are talking about. However, let's see the whole explanation:

"If she did possess the proper skills necessary to summon the dragon, it would bring her up from being the weakest Servant to the middle ranking among the Servants of the fifth war. However, the dragon itself isn't strong enough to be able to make a clear difference against higher level opponents."

TM said what you said, yes, however you are taking that part outside it context. I bolded the two important parts: with the dragon Medea wouldn't be the weakest Servant anymore, and would be a mid-tier Servant; however, even with the dragon she wouldn't be capable of fight against higher level opponents in that war.

So you are not totally right nor totally wrong saying "it won't make any significant difference". It would be. The dragon itself is powerful enough to let Medea be a mid-tier Servant in the Fifth War. However, it wouldn't be enough to fight the monster enemies she had in that war. Against Gilgamesh? Pff, easy fight for him with Enuma Elish and Enkidu, and probably he also have some dragon-killer NP in his Gate of Babylon. Fight against Artoria? Avalon, and no more problem. Against Cú Chulainn? Probably Gae Bolg would have been enough to pierce the dragon's heart. Like FGOHikaru said, Clochis is one of the weakest.

To be honest, I can hardly talk about summer Servants (or any non-serious event). If I don't respect things like those rank Ex, or those Mad Enhancement, my respect for those joke Servants is even less. I don't know anything about their skills or Noble Phantasm aside for their effect ingame. I don't think they can be used as a point of reference, specially because DW/Nasu doesn't give us ANY explanation about how they works. Literally nothing.

However, for curiosity I went to Kiyohime Lancer's article and... Well, I'll just say the same thing you said to me: read her bio, please.

Kiyohime Berserker Noble Phantasm: Tenshin Kasyou Zanmai // Rank EX // Anti-Unit (Self)

"A fire-breathing great serpent. That is, a turnover into a dragon. If she is summoned as a Servant, this will last for only 1 turn, but the force of the dragon's breath is tremendous."

Kiyohime Lancer Noble Phantasm: Doujou-ji Kane Hyakuhachi-shiki Karyu-nagi // Rank A // Anti-Personnel

"Locking up the opponent in a bell, piercing him with a naginata and blowing him away by a hair's breadth. Despite being on the height of summer, it is top-class in regards to being sultry. Because of that, it has an extremely bad reputation among Servants who travel together with her."

They are not the same Noble Phantasm, so there it's pointless to compare both of them to know if the rage of Kiyohime give more power to her NP or not. But even if you want to compare both of them: being a Berserker she transform in a dragon, a COMPLETE dragon, the whole phantasmal beast; being a Lancer she only lock the enemy in a bell, burn the enemy (without transforming) and pierce the bell with a lot of spears. She doesn't transform (or even use a dragon breath) there. You can se her NP animation in here. No transformation, no dragon, no breath, no anything. That's why it isn't EX or close to EX.

That whole argument is invalid.