Talk:Artoria Pendragon (Lily)/@comment-33554087-20180314172250/@comment-29893250-20180315102006

I did some rounding in my head and estimated. Someone below seems to have done the full math, though numbers weren't provided and they're about where I assumed they'd be.

I'm not counting the stuff that's equal here like prana burst.

8726 (assuming 1k fous which everyone should have) x 6 (NP modifier) = 52356

12221 x 4 x 1.18 = 57683

This damage is relatively similar. Every other NP interlude on a buster AOE has yielded a 100% damage modifier increase. This brings lily to 61082. Artoria will catch up when she hits NP2 which is about where I said she would on my estimate. I didn't note Artoria's hp pool because in this game, said hp pool has a tendency to be less important. There's a difference of about 4500 hp. Now let's go over the uses of servants. Farming, single boss, multi boss. Farming, either suffices on the back of a scope, waver, or whatever. The hp pool is unimportant in these situations and more often than not, lily's extra damage will not change anything in this situation as both will likely meet the minimum damage threshold to farm. So they get a tie here. For single boss, both are ill suited. For multi boss, we're looking at them operating within a team. In this case, you are likely to be using an arts team assuming it isn't so weak that you'd just NP spam through it with scopes and stuff. Usage of either of these two likely assumes lancer enemies. Otherwise you'd just use something else. Now, winning in these battles is all about keeping your weakest link alive. Generally, that will be your probably caster support which doesn't resist the enemy. As either of these two will, they will be significantly more tanky than your weakest link regardless of which. Both have low NP gain but Lily's journey of flowers is support as it will help your team cycle NPs more smoothly. It isn't for her. It is for everyone else. Charisma isn't really support as letting your Merlin/Waver/Hans/whatever hit harder is not really "team support". It is but it is the lowest grade, the most useless kind because it doesn't significantly help the others whose damage output is low anyway and you're primarily damaging through NPs where we know Lily will outdamage NP1 Artoria. Lily's heal is unlikely to be too relevant but seeing as either or is unlikely to be one shotted as they resist (and if they are, likely either would die), then Lily healing up becomes more relevant than Artoria vanilla's higher hp pool as she's able to stabilize more quickly.

Both of these are weak but their jobs are relatively narrow. One they do about equally. One they are both incompetent in. And in one, lily is more useful than vanilla Artoria. Thus lily is better. She also costs less to boot which is important. If you want to nitpick, she is also cheaper to raise in qp/mat/exp investments.

Do note that I don't believe all charisma skills are bad. Some servants are actually good at serving aggressive roles outside farming and the charisma boost helps the overall aggressive gameplay where you're running multiple attackers. However, in no difficult match will you find either of these two in that scenario. Rather, their only purpose in anything remotely difficult would be as wave clearers in an arts cycle team. If you're using any other kind of setup, it is more than likely that the fight isn't difficult at all and either works. You could use subpar team construction to create a situation where vanilla beats out lily but in each of those situations, it is more than likely that you're assuming a position where you began by shooting yourself in the kneecap which isn't reasonable grounds to judge on.

I respect people who want to use their waifus or favorite servants. I do it plenty. But if I'm going to grade a servant, it'd be on where they'd reasonably be used. Artoria vanilla in a vacuum is probably better than lily 9 times out of 10 but all 8 of those times are in subpar setups or fights where either is good enough. Lily will be better in those 1 times out of 10 where it will actually make a difference. So the way I see it, it is 9 ties and 1 win for Lily.