Talk:Astolfo/@comment-2001:569:7CA6:2400:E944:7207:B460:8714-20180118011338/@comment-173.206.31.107-20180214231614

I'll put this section here first since its clearly the only one where u can speak normally.

> If quick team are better then maybe he could be valuable quick Rider but sadly Quick team are still distant from being good.. and if you still not convinced, go think up of a team that are spesifically tailored to make him good,

You're moving the goalposts again, we're talking about astolfo compared to other riders not astolfo in a comp.

Instead you said this after saying he's the worst SR rider in the game, cause you value niches and other things more which is a shit argument.

If you began with this and said astolfo's okay but no quick support or underwealming means he underperforms on a team for him i'd agree. Cause that's pretty undeniable that tamamo/merlin make the other card types far better. But that's not an issue for astolfo himself that's an issue with supports.

Otherwise it's arguable that Mordred is worst then astolfo, if we're talking about her without tamamo for the arts support. Not to mention your argument is flatout stupid saying build a comp around him i bet you can't you can always find someone better after saying he's for general use

Word of advice don't sound like a raving maniac bashing his keyboard it makes your english look so stupid.

> ll I said is that specialized skill or even skill that seems useless at first glance are not bad IF you're not ignorant on how to use it.

You said that but then you said astolfo has bad skills. Meanwhile saying situational skills aren't bad. Even if they're identical skills except astolfo's has no restrictions. So that's you trying to pretend being niche but doing the same thing is good.

> Mary are darn good at her job if you use her well, the key here is IF you use her well. Saying Mary is a dead weight without star around is pretty much saying that Astolfo is a dead weight on Buster crit team.

i've proven my case you don't know what the hell you're talking about. using exaggerations and rediculous troll logic. Sucks at everything can survive = good servant, Astolfo can get above average of everything =bad servant.

Also for your 2nd part you aren't even trying are you, lets put a guy with 1 buster card on a buster team then say cause of that he's deadweight. This is not an argument this is literal you using absurd reasoning to make a bad example, also an astolfo on a buster crit team at least can take advantage of the crit damage and stars. What's anne and mary going to do when 2.5 of her skills are useless. So you're not even right on that example.

> The differences between you and me is simple, you compare them at their lowest, I compare those SR Rider at their best.

no you're cherry picking and pretending everything is it's at it's absolute best. You only take other servants at their specific best situations even though some of those are rediculously situational, or flatout awful even in their job and say that cause astolfo doesn't fit a niche he's auto worst then them. even if he's better in 8 out of 10 situations.

> I mean it's hilarious how you keep insisting that I said that 3rd skill is bad when I never said so, I definitely said that It's his only saving grace, Literally

> and finally here's friendly one time example from me on how to read a f'cking paragraph like a non-retard

Great take your own advice, i never once said that, you clearly don't know how to read and if i'm wrong i'd love for you to quote me. I specifically said you ignored how strong his third skill is and only talk about his 2 other bad skills. But clearly i'm talking to someone who likes to draw strawmans and doesn't know what he's even talking about.

Lancelot zerker has shit star generation beyond his NP, you don't see people saying he's a shit zerker he can't even use his own kit, you see people saying he's a crit monster cause when he's setup he can. same example here. You intentionally focus on bad np gain bad 1/2 skill, ignore how overloaded his third and NP are.

> and honestly every choice of word I use are spesific and every example I pick are intentionally picked that highlight certain

No you've made the shittiest examples known to man, cherry picked and took only specific parts and try to downplay the rest. Example case in point santa alter good NP damage, ignores that compared to astolfo he has a built in NP evade and NP charge. It's pretty clear you aren't arguing from any point of expertise. cause you place 0 value on everything else except what you're arguing.

Your mary and Astolfo argument is utterly stupid as well, you flatout agree Astolfo has better damage, well mind telling me when the hell anyone would want to build a comp around arguably the weakest SR to stay alive? Astolfo can go in NP clear a wave and deal actual damage. You saying Astolfo's star gen/crit damage NP charge is worst then Mary's 4k heal is fine but it's not an argument it's opnion.

Mind that you're the one who said this is a 3 squad game so teammates need to complement each other. well in what hell comp would you ever use mary in that astolfo wouldn't be better. Cause at least with his third astolfo can do respectable damage.

> while Astolfo need to wait for those 8 turns to make up for his shitty NP gain.

Yeah meanwhile mary has a unupgraded NP close to 0 star generation, and irrelavent damagewise. It doesn't matter that astolfo takes longer to charge afterwards he has his first charge for effectively half price. Not to mention mary's first skill is a flat downgrade to astolfo's 2nd and skill you claimed is bad.

> (I F'cking write it clearly) that Santa Alter word to word "have higher damage ceilings

a term you made up and has no meaning, cause it's pretty obvious santa does higher Np damage. Idc if you make up shitty terms it doesn't change the fact that you flatout pretend damage is all that matters in that situation and palce 0 value on np charge stars or the evade. In which case congratz you've moved the conversation to best single use NP for wave clearing which has nothing to do with this cause that's not astolfo's strength.

> There's no loss when you discard him, and there's small gain if you use him is exactly the problem of jack of all trades.

Jack of all trades isn't a bad thing, not to mention it's arguable if he even is cause he's closer to a quick bruiserish, i don't even know if i'd agree that he is a jack of all trades cause his playstyle's pretty clearly get crit stars crit damage up and be really sticky.

> Martha did? Heal, remove debuff, GIVE DEBUFF, REMOVE ENEMY BUFF, DEAL AoE DAMAGE. Ergo, your comparison is exactly the definition of desperate.

Pfft i'm desperate? and astolfo has crit damage, survivability innate star gen cc and np, he's not top of the line for anyone but definitely not awful at them. Your point? Your argument oh she's good in challenge quests against specific servants, ok fine i don't disagree, astolfo's still better for general use. But no you're HE"S THE WORST SR RIDER EVER is the definition of stupidity and desperation

> Sieg have time to shine, Astolfo? none.

ya against 2 boss enemies in the game in artoria lancers. He's shit pre-buff on anyone else cause of how low damage he does and saber alter's better in majority of the situations. Same issue with Mary and astolfo, astolfo does way more then her in every thing damage, stars, and while his NP gain is crap the fact that he has innate crit damage and star gen doesn't make him irrelavent damagewise.

Here i'll sum it up

You argue things on bias and intentionally omit strengths, Yes santa's NP is stronger, astolfo still charges it faster and has reasonable star gen on top of that. You omit the latter 2 obviously and only look at damage.

Mary > astolfo cause having 3k more heals is worth losing out on close to 1.5x damage via np damage, stars and crit damage. Again your opnion.

Low base atk, well you admitted you were wrong on this so i'll let it go.

Niche > jack of all trade which idk if i even agree, again your bias cause you'd never even use those in those niches. Lets me be frank being NIche is the same as you using the excuse they can do really well in x/10 situations and shit at the rest so they aren't as bad as someone whose average in all situations.

> In fact I highlight scathach in particular because she's holder of both relatively bad skill and bad NP gain

I compeltely disagree with this btw, Scatach's third is a niche but the rest of her kit is completely powerful even without it cause her NP is a garanteed stun and she already has a relatively powerful steroid from her 2nd. Idk how you could say she has relatively bad skills tbh but whatever that's an argument for another time.

>Oh no, it's because I wrote that "bad Np gain bad servant", but sorry to be rude but the only bad thing in here is how bad your reading skill is because I DID NOT WRITE THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE. Learn to read from the very basic before you rant, 90% of your argument are just you failed to comprehent anything I wriote

FIrst off take your own advice. secondly here's what you said

> The problem of Astolfo is not limited to skill and NP gain only, there's also the weak damage from the combination of triple Q deck and the low 8k stat.

The atk stat is wrong as we've agreed he's pretty close to average, the deck type is arguable but having 3 q + quick Np is decent for a brave chain and on a servant focused around crit damage and stars it's arguably better then qqaab.

I said why you're wrong about skills cause you said specific traits are skills good, general skills bad. then you went into a rediculous rant about niches all dem beautiful niches make servants better then astolfo cause of that 1 specific situation.

and np gain is the last one. So no i did correctly identify what you said cause you did write that.

> Faster NP gain that most of the list? yeah right Astolfo are dependent on 8 turns cooldown 50% Np charge, that's longer than most mook farming routine

Firstly what i said is true cause he gets his first one off faster then most other servants i didn't talk about spamming it in any sense of the world so just like your DAMaGE POWER CEILING nonsense you completely chose to misinterprete it as spamming NP charge to having his Np ready first.

secondly my apologies for being a peasant who doesn't have a lineup of using a single servant to aoe spam 3 times in a row to farm mooks. which makes your argument utterly rediculous cause you don't spam his NP to begin with let alone any servant beyond specific arts team and ur using that against him for not being the sole dps for mook farming.

Anyways i'm done thanks for the argument but you seem to be going a bit mental with rage judging from your 2nd to last reply.